The Divorce Journey: Navigating Pre and Post Divorce Challenges
Welcome to MediatorPodcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation, and collaboration. My name is Melissa Gragg, and I'm a valuation expert and a divorce mediator in St. Louis, Missouri.
Today we'll discuss the divorce journey with the founder of Foundations Divorce Solutions and Foundation's Coaching Group, Caroline Pak. Caroline is a certified divorce and transitions coach, a life coach, a mediator, and a certified divorce financial analyst based in Seattle, Washington.
1. What is the very first step someone should take when they've decided to file for divorce?
2. What common challenges do you see your divorcing clients going through and how do they overcome them?
3. What advice do you have for someone going through the divorce process?
4. What is the difference between short-term and long-term planning for someone going through a divorce?
5. How does someone redefine their life post-divorce?
Melissa Gragg CVA, MAFF, CDFA
Expert testimony for financial and valuation issues
Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC
melissa@bridgevaluation.com
http://www.BridgeValuation.com
http://www.ValuationPodcast.com
http://www.MediatorPodcast.com
https://www.valuationmediation.com
Cell: (314) 541-8163
Caroline Pak
Divorce Mediator | CDFA®️ | CDC®️ | Certified Divorce & Transitions Coach
www.foundationsdivorcesolutions.com
855-707-6277
Info@FoundationsDivorceSolutions.com
Melissa (00:00:00):
Hi, welcome to mediator podcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation, and collaboration. My name is Melissa Gragg, and I'm a valuation expert and a divorce mediator in St. Louis, Missouri. Today we'll discuss the divorce journey with the founder of Foundations Divorce Solutions and Foundation's Coaching Group, Caroline Pak. Caroline is a certified divorce and transitions coach, a life coach, a mediator, and a certified divorce financial analyst based in Seattle, Washington. She's gonna be expanding to other areas, maybe even LA soon. But she provides a lot of information related to divorce, and I have been communicating with her for the better part of a year in order for us to create some really, really beneficial in information about divorce, because it's a process. The reason why we're calling it a journey is because I get involved when people are in the divorce and they have financial issues, and Caroline gets involved when they have financial issues. But what happens is there's more that comes after. There's a process of like being different and going through this process that kind of change changes you. And maybe Caroline, before we get started in some of the questions, you know, you could give a little bit just about maybe how you have been working with people in the past and maybe how it's shifting now.
Caroline (00:01:38):
Melissa, first and foremost, thank you so very much for having me on the Mediator podcast. And truly, it is my honor and privilege to be here to sit with you, to hold space with you. My process, you know, initially I was a C D F A Certified Divorce Financial Analyst because I have a background in finance. My career started in banking and ended in ultra high net worth wealth management before I launched my own divorce practice. My passion at that time really was to sit with people to look at what is the day after divorce look like for you financially, and what does your mid and long-term financial vision look like for you? And what can we do to get you to your financial goals? As I met with clients and journeyed truly journeyed with them step by step through the process, what I recognize was it's not about the finances.
Caroline (00:02:43):
Now, don't get me wrong, finances are very important, but the financial piece is actually the easiest piece. Finances are black and white. You got pluses and minuses, boop, boop, boop. You got a number at the bottom. Are we making a 50 50? Are we making it equitable? So it's a different percentage. It's, it's just numbers. What I recognized though, was that in the process of mediation or working with your attorney, through litigation or even with the collaborative practice, what ends up happening is the heart and the mind starts to do things. And now the numbers are just fuzzy.
Caroline (00:03:28):
There's anchors, there's shadows that come out, and our clients end up freaking out. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> clearly eating a pause. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, or, or they start to fight. So my process has shifted and truly has become more holistic over the last three years with each client that I've met, with each couple that I sit with, I recognize that, you know, we gotta work on this. We gotta work on this, not just the monies. And as we work through all the processes together, the day after divorce, yeah, they know what their cash flow is. But the day after divorce, we also have hope. Many of my clients are within the gray divorce zone, so they're older, they've been married for decades. Some of my lesser earning spouse hasn't worked in decades. Their entire identity was the spouse of the mother, of the father of, right. So how do we take this person as they are facing their entire life's identity being shifted and help them to shift that paradigm of who that identity is anchored in.
Caroline (00:05:01):
Through the mediation process, through the time together, in the litigation support process, I get to work and walk with my clients. I get to give them hope in themselves, confidence in themselves by asking them some hard questions, maybe shining the light in areas where I see that they might have a blind spot, but also truly holding space for them to process, to sit with and really shift little by little. We all know it's the little shifts that when we look from the past or from the future into the past, they've been momentous. And truly, I can say many of my clients have had some incredibly momentous chefs. Some one of my clients married over 40 years. Her entire identity was as the spouse of, she didn't make as much as her husband, but somehow through the divorce she kept moving forward. She ended up even buying her own condo recently. Something I don't think that she even like, thought could be possible, but she's still on this journey. Her heart and her mind is sh still growing and shifting and, and being open to the possibility of even more at this space in her life. You know, she's now in her sixties, late sixties, and it's like a brand new life.
Melissa (00:06:44):
Yeah. And it's, it's interesting because even as we were talking about this initially, there is a paradigm shift. There is a shift in who you are. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, and so in this divorce process, there are obviously steps to take and, you know, we wanna walk through them and, and, and looking at this though, you, you know, and we were talking about this before we started, you know, I asked a, a client recently in mediation, I said, are you ready to settle today? Cuz we were mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, we were there and it was, yeah, big mediation with multiple attorneys on both sides. And everybody's coming for an entire day. Right. And I say, first thing, no one else is in the room. I say, are you ready to settle this today? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And she's like, I mean, yeah, that's why we're here. And I was like, no, no, no, no. Are you, you as a person mm-hmm. <Affirmative> ready for this to be over. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Cause if it's over today, we're off the rollercoaster. Mm-Hmm. We're not in this drama trauma cycle anymore. Are you ready for that? And she said, no,
Caroline (00:07:50):
She
Melissa (00:07:50):
Wasn't. She had never wanted to do this. She didn't. And I said, but are you the same person when you started this? And she's like, well, no. And I said, exactly, everything has to change. And so that's kind of the gateway into this discussion, which is maybe not so focused on finances, but focused on the journey as you are as a human going through this divorce process. And from your perspective, what's one of the first steps that somebody could take when they've decided that this is their choice, this is the next thing that they wanna do, and they wanna file for divorce? What do you recommend in your practice?
Caroline (00:08:34):
I think part of the steps is not just about, I'm not happy. Right? That's one aspect that the other aspect is, if I'm not happy here, what is gonna make me happy? Right? What, what is this life that I'm looking for that's not being satisfied here? Right? One of the questions that I ask every one of my clients, every one of my consultations is I ask them to physically write out what does your best life look like? One to three years post-divorce? Where do you live? What do you look like? How do you feel? Who are you spending time with? Are you vacationing? Are you dating? What does your relationship with your ex-spouse look like? If you have kids, what does your relationship with your kids look like? Write it out. And then from there, sit with the feelings, the thoughts, the emotions that come up. And as you sit with it, what ends up happening is twofold.
Caroline (00:09:51):
The mind starts to shift. But with this joy that starts to well up in that hope, your physiological body starts to shift, it actually lowers your stress hormones because you're having a moment of joy. And in that joy and in the Lord stress hormones, you may have clarity. That little window opens up and it can give you a little bit of direction as to how you wanna proceed in this divorce, in what manner, and actually whether it is actually what you wanna go through. Right. In so many different levels, many of us make decisions to divorce because of stress. We end the relationship in our stress and not in clarity, not in clarity, not in peace. We don't have the ability to think straight because we are in our fight, flight, or freeze mode. How do we get ourselves out of the fight, flight or freeze even for a moment so that we can have that clarity and then that clarity is where we make the decision. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> that one, you're and piggy
Melissa (00:11:13):
Go ahead. Even to piggyback on that, when you decide, when you acknowledge that you're not the same person, right? Yeah. You're, you're no longer part of that two people path. Yeah. And, and you start to determine that you're gonna have a different life going forward and you start to enunciate what that looks like. You, you do sort of start to manifest a different outcome, a different reality. And the perspective shifts, right.
Caroline (00:11:46):
Per, it's not even the perspective, it's you that shifts. I'm not sure if you or your audience knows of Jo Dr. Joe Dispenza mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but he talks about how when we think of ourselves in the future and we're able to reprogram our subconscious mind, that becomes reality. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And in that sense, whatever you manifest the goal setting, all of that just starts to
Melissa (00:12:18):
Yeah. Pops
Caroline (00:12:19):
And pops quickly.
Melissa (00:12:20):
Well, well, and I don't think people understand, like, if, if Fridays were always the days that you went and, and went to this certain place, and that was your family meal, right? Of the week, all of these events or, or patterns are going to change mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so if you don't start creating what you think it's gonna look like, like yes. You know, like I've always loved bird watching. Oh. Like, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna find out more about that. Right. Because I've always just gone and watched football because that person loved football or mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, whatever ducks, they prefer ducks. And I like other birds like uhhuh, <affirmative>, you start to get that system. And I think that that's interesting because one of the things we're talking about normally is money, right? And we're not really talking about money here.
Melissa (00:13:10):
It's not, we're talking about the challenges that you have in navigating through this divorce process and really what is the next chapters of your existence, right? Yep. And so, in that space, what are some of the challenges that, that somebody maybe not, doesn't even think about that they're gonna start to see, and you've seen other divorcing clients go through, you know, how did they get through this? How did they get over it? Everything's changing. My world is crumbling. Yeah. And I don't even know who I am anymore. Like, how do you help them move forward?
Caroline (00:13:56):
Cause it's
Melissa (00:13:56):
Crippling It could, it could pause it.
Caroline (00:13:58):
It's 100% crippling, right? But it's also because we have been anchored into one set of paradigm. Right. And un anchoring is very difficult if you're unwilling to be open. So the number one challenge is, is my mind open? Is my heart open? Are we open to just one little shift? Just one little, I'm not asking for the whole thing. That's too much. Okay, let's be clear. That's too much. I'm asking for one little itty bitty thing.
Melissa (00:14:42):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Caroline (00:14:43):
It's that one little itty bitty thing that opens the window just ever so slightly and opening that window ever so slightly. We get to open up a little bit more. Cuz you know what? Opening up is very scary. We want to take time in the manner that my client needs to take each step in its time. And my clients have the, the permission to pause whenever they need to. They also have the permission to ask whatever they need or want. This may be a practice that many of us have been conditioned to not take in marriage. It's a relationship. It's a two-way dance. There is a pattern. And over the years, the pattern may have been that you already know if you ask this, you're gonna get a no. So you stopped asking because after a while you're like, this ain't working. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So why get a no and be disappointed then? Yeah. To ask and be disappointed. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I let my clients know I'm not your spouse. You can ask, and the answer is not an automatic no. The answer might be, let's look at all the different aspects. Let's consider, let's pause with every single aspect and see what actually feels good. What makes sense financially. Does it make sense emotionally? Does it make sense mentally? Does it make sense? Can you see this in the future for you?
Melissa (00:16:31):
Mm-Hmm.
Caroline (00:16:31):
<Affirmative>, and in really taking time to consider, they get to actually now start building agency for themselves. Common challenge. Many of my clients have not been given permission to be an agent in their own lives. This is unfamiliar, this is scary. As one little step at a time to get comfortable with making decisions for themselves in their own lives. And with every step foundation, this is foundation building
Melissa (00:17:10):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,
Caroline (00:17:12):
Every little block builds a foundation, makes it stronger so that post-divorce, we feel strong enough to stand on our own.
Melissa (00:17:24):
Well, we
Caroline (00:17:25):
Feel equipped enough.
Melissa (00:17:27):
Yeah. And, and I think that when people are going through this process, and what we will typically see, especially in high net worth divorces mm-hmm. <Affirmative> is some sort of financial abusive behavior. And when we use that term, we really mean that one person has control over the money or assets or bank accounts mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And one person may not have as much control mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And, and sometimes that control is leveraged in the relationship as well as, oh, now I'm getting divorced. And not only do I need to figure out who I am, I need to figure out who's gonna pay the bills. I need to figure out who are the bills
Caroline (00:18:14):
Owe to
Melissa (00:18:15):
<Laugh>. Right. And I mean, we, this is, so they're trying to figure out like, how do I run that? Like, which is the mechanical, right? I mean, I need to make sure that I know the dates. Yeah. But I'm also like changing and I have this emotional stuff. And quite frankly, where we're coming in is we're just walking you through this process. Right. So the process is gonna go and at some point you're gonna get divorced. We don't know how long it's gonna take mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but it's gonna take a time period. Right? Yeah. What do you have advice wise? Because sometimes we don't have control over how quickly it happens. We don't have, we, even if we're doing mediation, we don't have control over how the participants Right. We have a lot of people get very frustrated when things get canceled. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, they get canceled and moved all the time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So we have to prep for that. But what advice do you have for somebody who's trying to balance all of these changes coming at the same time through this divorce process? And some of them always seem like they're more important than the others, or they're all important, right?
Caroline (00:19:28):
Yeah. They're all important, whether you know it or not, whether you understand it or not, they're all important. The, they're all aspects that may perpetuate and expand your stress. And so an advice for someone going through the divorce process may be hire the experts. It's okay. Right? And it's not even just hire the experts. Hire the people who make you feel safe. When I have consultations for mediation, I always let them know, make sure it's the right fit. Make sure your mediator makes you feel safe. If you don't feel connected to your mediator, you're not gonna be able to make the right decisions for you. If you don't feel safe with me, by all means, go and meet with other mediators and find out every mediator has a different style. They, they have a, and, and I let my clients know my style of mediation is very different than the average mediator because I will take you on a journey.
Caroline (00:20:47):
It's a process. I recognize that it's not about just the numbers. So if you want just the numbers, there are other mediators with financial backgrounds, by all means that might be a better fit for you. Or if you just want the legal, I'm not an attorney, I can give you the parameters of the law, but I can't tell you this is exactly how it's gonna be because I don't practice law. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But if you wanna feel held, if you wanna look at the numbers, if you wanna know that we have a plan that, you know, you were speaking earlier about, like essentially the numbers. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, I work with my clients to work through their budget, their spending plan. We go detail to detail. This is how much money is coming in from salary, from bonuses, child support to spousal maintenance. We look at all of that.
Caroline (00:21:45):
We look at all the expenses. Every line by line, I ask them, okay, you have a car, there's no payment here. How old's your car? When do you think we need to purchase a new car? How, what kind of car would you purchase? Would you buy it in cash? Or would you have a month, you know, a loan against it so that we can project that in, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, it's not just about what is, what's your cashflow the day after divorce? Can you live in the house and pay your, your utilities and put food on the table? That's not all we're looking at. We're looking at when the car breaks down, do we have the funds to fix it or do we have the funds to buy a new one? Have we already allocated some of those funds? Right? We talk about, okay, so you don't have cable tv, but tell me about all the subscriptions.
Caroline (00:22:40):
Let's add those up. Are those being shared with your spouse? Will you want these separately? How do we budget that in? Right? We go through the practical and in the practical as they recognize, oh, these are where the bills are going, right? This is how much I'm spending. They once again become agents of their own lives. They went from not knowing anything about their finances to now learning a little bit, getting comfortable with it, and then saying, okay, what else can I add? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, what else can you look at? I'm feeling better about this. Can you teach me the next step? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, right? It's, it's that journey. Emotional, mental, along with the practical, it's the journey, right? It's not just about I'm processesing the divorce, but really do I know I got this? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, do I know I got this? Knowing something as simple as I'm in the black at the end of every month has, has you recognize I got this right, I can do this. Right? Right. Slight shift. But again, it's all about the slight shifts that end up being a firm foundation for your future.
Melissa (00:24:06):
Well, and transparency through the divorce process from a financial aspect is probably the biggest leveler of the game. And what, what I mean by that is when you allow both parties, both people who are getting divorced to know what the financial reality is mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, then they can make better decisions. Right?
Caroline (00:24:31):
100%.
Melissa (00:24:31):
Like if you give me an apple and an orange and then you don't tell me that, like in the orange is a diamond and I'm just picking based on whether I'm going to eat the orange and I don't even like oranges, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, then I'm gonna choose the apple based on what it looks like. As opposed to the transparency is, oh guys, by the way, the orange actually has a diamond in it. And I can be like, you, you can do more with the diamond than I can, but I thank you for allowing me to understand that now I can choose what I do with it. Yes. And a lot of times we're trying to balance the knowledge piece so that oh, okay. You know, you have Netflix and Hulu or whatever and you don't like either one of them. Yeah, great. Let's get rid of both of them. You know, like, or I want one and not the other. But that, that there's a difference between knowing it and choosing it.
Caroline (00:25:30):
Choosing it is agency.
Melissa (00:25:32):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>
Caroline (00:25:35):
Choosing it is building your self-confidence, which you may not have had through the marriage. Right.
Melissa (00:25:44):
Right. And I think that when it comes down to it, one of the biggest hurdles in getting through this divorce is the fact that you are different and you have changed. And it could be that you got married, right? When you, you know, went from your family home to the marital home and you then immediately had kids, or you immediately went into that traditional marriage concept mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah. And you never did find out who you were. You just were the mom or the dad or the spouse or the husband or the wife or the whatever, whatever the label it is. And that never really was you. So you go through this process and you're like, oh, I gotta find the new me. Yeah. And I gotta figure out how to pay the bills and I gotta get a job and I gotta do this, or I don't.
Melissa (00:26:40):
And all of that is so dif you know, like so many pieces of the process. Then we start to say, okay, hold on, step back. Cuz it gets, I mean like I'm already, I've already overwhelmed myself just thinking and talking about it. Right? And then you get, and you're like, oh my gosh, how am I gonna do all this? So how do you start to break it down to like, okay, what should I do now short term? What, what should I do long term, you know, future? And then, and then how do I not get overwhelmed by it?
Caroline (00:27:15):
So I don't look initially at the long term. Okay. I personally am looking at the long-term in terms of the finances that I can do. But to discuss it with say, a non C F O spouse, that's overwhelming. It's too much. They're already triggered. They're alreadys scared and anxious thinking about, will I have enough money to pay the bills? Will I have a house? Can I put food on the table for my kids when they're in that state? The only thing I wanna focus on is, let's look at your short term again, going back to what does your life post-divorce one to three years from now look like? What does your best life look like? Not, not what does your hopeful life look like, but what does your best life look like? Because when we look at that best life, we can walk it backwards to today and start taking little steps so that we can get there in one to three years.
Caroline (00:28:19):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> one years might be too quick. And that's why I say one to three years mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. But if they are like, they can imagine it, they can see it in their future, we can work backwards. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, we can set little goals to build upon so that by the time a year comes back, we can say, where are we? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, how far have we come? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, can we celebrate that? I know you've worked hard, I know this was not always easy. I know there were a lot of transitions, but can we celebrate this landmark moment and now let's look at where does the three years end up? And let's keep working that backwards to the present and taking one step at a time. It's not about going, that's where I wanna be and that's where I have to be. It literally is one step at a time. I have to tell you a funny story. So again, this is, this exercise is something that I give to all everybody I meet. I encourage everybody to do this. Imagine yourself in that space. For me personally, I know like where I wanna go in the long term future, but I have to confess, I didn't actually do the one year exercise until recently.
Melissa (00:29:38):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>,
Caroline (00:29:39):
<Laugh>.
Melissa (00:29:39):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Caroline (00:29:42):
And so I sat down one day and I said, what does my best life look like a year from now? And I wrote it out, where am I living? What am I wearing? What is, what is the emotion and the vibe that I am just sending out? What, what do my finances look like? What do I look like physically? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, what is my health situation. Right. Wrote it all down and then I wrote, I broke it down to okay. To look like what I wanna look like, I, I need to budget some money into, you know, for my wardrobe. There was some specific jewelry pieces that I wanted and I said, okay, these, this is how much I'm gonna set aside so that I could buy it one day. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> in terms of physical, I said I need to, I, there's no way I'm gonna get to this overnight.
Caroline (00:30:35):
Right. So am I willing to give myself space to work on it for six months to a year. Yeah. And once I broke it down, I'm like, easy peasy. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. It's doable. Yeah. And then the next thing that happened was I happened to walk around the neighborhood and it happened to be a Sunday and there was a farmer's market and there was a jewelry stand and I saw these earrings that fit into my one year best life. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I bought it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> one more step towards my one year best life mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So that when I wear it, I could embody who I see myself to be. It gives me encouragement to go and work out when I don't feel like it. Right. Because it's all towards that space that I see myself in. This is what I hope for my clients, that they will take one step at a time so that we can work towards that best life. That it's possible. It's not just a fantasy. Right. It's not just a pipe dream.
Melissa (00:31:40):
Yeah. Well, and part of it is with any of the love of attraction mm-hmm. <Affirmative> powers of manifestation, you know, universe creating your reality and all of these constructs, if you will, your imagination is only limited by yourself. And so if you can imagine and, and I try to get the emotions into it. So like you have to, okay, where am I gonna be at the end of the, the, how am I gonna feel mm-hmm. <Affirmative> at the end of that year. Right. What am I gonna be? Okay, so you're gonna be a millionaire and you're gonna be very health con you know, like now I have to dial it back and say, what am I going to do today to be a millionaire and be in my best health possible today? What am I gonna do today?
Caroline (00:32:33):
Mm-Hmm.
Melissa (00:32:34):
<Affirmative>. Okay. Okay, let's do that still with that vision. And then recently somebody said, you know, this happened and this happened. How, how did this possibly happen? And I said to them, I said, why would you create that? And they said, what? And I said, well, why would you create that? It's gotta have some benefit for you or else why would you create it? And so as you look at your current life, why are you create, why are you actively doing those toxic behaviors? What benefit are you gaining from it? Now if you're like, well I was getting benefit, but now I'm not. Okay, well then now it is time to let go of that toxic behavior cuz I'm not getting the same benefit. You know, like mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, as you heal, as you change, this will also change your love. Like I used to love like, you know, happy hour, whatever, we'll take an example. Right. Loved it. Go out all the time. And then it just didn't love me. Mm. And at some point I had to be like, well why am I still creating this that it the next couple days, it does not love me. Why don't you just, you know, go to those things without that? And I was like, oh, that's, that's interesting. I never chose that.
Caroline (00:34:00):
Just slight paradigm.
Melissa (00:34:02):
But it's just slight. It's not that I'm, I am not allowed to have it. It's that I choose to have a different reality. I choose to have a different wake up. I choose to have a different reality based on the circumstances. How can I choose something different? And if you can't start to accept that, you create your own reality mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, which not everybody can, cuz they'll be like, this is happening. Like they did this to me. Totally understand. That is a perspective that some, that people do things to you then if you can switch it and say, okay, why did I choose to allow myself to be in that? Did I not feel good about myself? Did I not feel that I am the queen? Be that I deserve all of that. Right.
Caroline (00:34:53):
We don't mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Right. you know, before we started recording, I told you how I was walking my dog and just having a moment of gratitude for this time, this exact time, how you and I have been connecting and trying to connect to record this podcast for over a year. Mm-Hmm.
Melissa (00:35:15):
<Affirmative>,
Caroline (00:35:16):
But that today was the exact day. Part of what I realized as I'm scrolling through, you know, my, my Instagram and my Facebook this morning was five years ago. Today is when I started my own personal healing journey to this day.
Melissa (00:35:36):
Wow.
Caroline (00:35:37):
And that it wasn't an overnight transition. I didn't learn my worth overnight. I didn't understand that I could be queen overnight. It was one choice at a time. One little shift in thinking at a time. And over the last five years, I can say I am in a space now that I hope that I could share this joy, this wonder, this gift for all, for all person in humanity to understand that they are worthy, they are worthy, that they deserve love. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, that they deserve care and compassion and attunement to everything that they've experienced. And also to give hope that there's more in the future that they can choose to walk into the fullness of why they were created, why they are on this earth, that they have a calling, whatever that calling is. That it's possible. Somewhere in our childhood, within our lives, we've been told a story, we've been told a story mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and we listened to it and we made it our own.
Melissa (00:37:00):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,
Caroline (00:37:02):
We get to now choose one step at a time that that toxic behavior no longer serves us. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, it is not part of what I want to be, who I see myself to be. You know, sometimes we have to work at getting to the root like you and your happy hour. It wasn't the happy hour, it was probably the connections that you were making mm-hmm. <Affirmative> the emotions that you felt when you connected with somebody on a very authentic and true level. And in that connection you're like, I wanna do this again. I wanna have this feeling again.
Melissa (00:37:41):
Mm-Hmm.
Caroline (00:37:41):
<Affirmative>, but the happy hour portion made it something different. Having connection and authenticity still part of your reality. Right. Right.
Melissa (00:37:55):
Right.
Caroline (00:37:55):
We just needed to get to the root of what felt good, what serves me, what serves the other person. Hmm. And how do we continue that path and take away all the rest of the junk that's no longer serving us.
Melissa (00:38:10):
Well, and the interesting piece, and it's kind of where we started this whole thing, is that, you know, this is you redefining, or in some cases, defining for the first time what your life will look like based on what you want it to look like, based on how you want to feel based on, on how you want to be going forward. Because trauma and, and traumatic relationships are usually a product of prior relationships, either family, relationships, parents, sibling. And so when we go into these divorces that end, it is a relationship that ends. We have probably been repeating patterns that we're not
Caroline (00:39:03):
Gonna get us, not us
Melissa (00:39:04):
Not gonna get us success anyway. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So how do we start to redefine it, not only by, you know, like, and I do tell people like, find something that you like to do and do it. And then if you don't wanna do that anymore, find another, like find the hobbies that will allow you to know what joy feels like so that you repeat joy. Because when you haven't been feeling joy or experiencing joy, you are just like, huh, well it's too much. It's just nobody's happy. Yeah. Like, nobody's happy. Nobody's nobody f oh, you're faking it when you act happy you're not, you know, like, because of that's what we knew, right? Yeah. So you have to like peel all that away and say, if it were all a lie <laugh>, and I think it was, if it were all a lie, how would I be different? What, how do you talk to them about that?
Caroline (00:40:02):
I think it always goes back to what does your best life and your best self look like?
Melissa (00:40:08):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,
Caroline (00:40:09):
You know, one of the easy ones, like if we wanna look at like long-term best life if you work with like a business coach or a life coach, some may ask you if money wasn't an issue, you had million dollars in the bank, what would your life look like?
Melissa (00:40:28):
Yeah.
Caroline (00:40:28):
Right? Yeah. Write it down. If money wasn't the issue, what kind of work would you be doing? If you were doing work, what, you know, where would you live? What would you spend your time and money and whatever else on Right. What would it look like? That's, that's like no, no limits on the money. Well, most of us have limits on the money, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, but just because we have limits doesn't mean we can't have some aspect of that limitless money world. It doesn't mean we can't choose some place today to help move us forward in whatever joy you're getting from that money limitless life that you can get to. Mm-Hmm. Right? Mm-Hmm. Right. That's why I start with the one to three years with most of my clients. Where can we start? Mm-Hmm.
Melissa (00:41:23):
<Affirmative>,
Caroline (00:41:23):
You know, where can we start? Because it's possible. It's just one step.
Melissa (00:41:30):
Mm-Hmm.
Caroline (00:41:30):
One little step. And then are we willing to get curious about the next step? And I have to preface, once you take the first step, let's be real. It's exhausting because we are now breaking patterns. We are shifting our minds, our heart, everything within our limbic system on down is saying, this is not the right way, this is not the right way. Go back to what worked. Right? Right. But as you take that little brave step, you can add the next brave step. Take that first brave step, sit with all the overwhelm. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Okay. Because it will pass. And once you feel calm enough, take the next step. Because what we're trying to do is get rid of all the patterns that no longer works. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> face it and say, you know what? It doesn't work anymore. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, it no longer serves a purpose in my life, in the future, in the near future. Not even in the present. It no longer serves me. Right. It doesn't help me. So take that one step and, and in breaking that pattern, take that next step and keep taking the steps. Be brave for yourself.
Melissa (00:42:52):
Right.
Caroline (00:42:53):
Be brave for your kids who are watching you go through this process.
Melissa (00:42:57):
But I, but I think that, you know, like it's, it is the same as my, one of my trainers would tell me like, it's not about willpower, it's not about, it's not about taking the next step. It's not about forcing yourself to take the next step. It's about surrounding yourself with people that hold you accountable to being your best version of yourself. And so a lot of times when we go through this divorce, we're like, oh, my friends, I'm gonna lose. They, they're all going with their them the other si. You know, like mm-hmm. And, and I sit back and the same people, I was like, yeah, but are you the same person that met them? You were a different version of this. And if you don't start to like surround yourself with the people that are like, champion that version of yourself. Yeah. You will re revert. It's way easier to go back to the past way easier.
Caroline (00:43:48):
I'm, I'm gonna reframe a word that you said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Accountability. Okay. I think right now accountability might be too much.
Melissa (00:43:55):
Okay.
Caroline (00:43:55):
Because they're already in overwhelm.
Melissa (00:43:58):
Yes.
Caroline (00:43:59):
What they need is people who will sit with them in the space that they are in. Yes. To give them safety.
Melissa (00:44:09):
Yes.
Caroline (00:44:09):
To let them know that they're exactly in a, the right place right now, as uncomfortable as things might feel, that they have a contained space mm-hmm. Where they know they are loved. Mm-Hmm. They are cared for and they are supported. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they're supported. The accountability will come
Melissa (00:44:32):
Before. Well, and if we've shifted a little bit more, I think what what I see is that you're starting to surround yourself with people that don't solve your problem. Right? Mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Cause you'll have your team that's helping you with the divorce. Yeah. And you normally see therapists, right. That would solve your problem. Yeah. This is not a solving your problem. This is can you get people surrounding you that, like you said, will hold the space, will listen, that's it. Yeah. And let you process because you, you are the one that has the answers.
Caroline (00:45:07):
Yeah. You do have the answers. If
Melissa (00:45:10):
You can dim the voices of everyone around you telling you, this is what happened in my divorce, this is what you should do. Oh, you should not do that, don't do that. No, that's bad. You know, like if you can just be like, what is good for me in this current, and that could be different in a couple years, but right now what do I need? And start to have those people and bring them in and let go of some that are obviously being pulled away. Right? Yes. For whatever reason. And to allow that to happen. I think then the difficulties of the divorce or the financials or the emotions are a lot easier because you would need more time to release. Right. To let some of the anger out in a safe environment and be like, Hey, I just wanna rage and then I want you to just forget it.
Caroline (00:46:04):
<Laugh>. Yep. Yep.
Melissa (00:46:06):
Right.
Caroline (00:46:06):
Finding people to hold that safe space is, is key. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, if you don't feel safe, you're gonna constantly be in the fight. Fight or freeze. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you may go back to the fight. Fight or freeze, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, how do we get rid of the voices?
Melissa (00:46:26):
Right.
Caroline (00:46:27):
Everybody's saying, this was my divorce and this is what you should do. Yeah. Without being in it, we don't all know what this specific individual should do.
Melissa (00:46:38):
Right. Right.
Caroline (00:46:40):
Part of what,
Melissa (00:46:41):
No, we don't know. We, we don't know ever what anybody should do. Ever. Like I have zero idea of what you should, should like I even hate the word
Caroline (00:46:52):
Should. Yeah.
Melissa (00:46:52):
Like should who, who should do what? Like it's just surrounding yourself with people that support you being your best version of yourself. And a lot of times when you look around, the people that were around you are part of the limiting belief system. Mm-Hmm. They are the ones that are like, oh, you can't do that. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, how are you gonna do that? You're gonna survive without your spouse
Caroline (00:47:16):
Projecting the own fears. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, right?
Melissa (00:47:21):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,
Caroline (00:47:24):
Sh changing your, your people, your circle is, is scary. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, but over time it does happen because you recognize now they're putting shackles on you C cuz they have shackles on themselves. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And you're in a space now where you don't want the shackles. You're in a space now where you started listening to your gut.
Melissa (00:47:51):
Right.
Caroline (00:47:52):
When listening to your gut you recognize, oh I got this. And that is the most powerful place, right. Is when you know deep within your soul you got this mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, there are people who you will surround yourself with who will remind you that you don't have this. Right. And then there are other people that you can choose to surround yourself with. Right. That reminds you, you got it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, don't worry. What does your gut say? What do you feel? And as you continue to take steps towards that, miracles happen.
Melissa (00:48:31):
Well and I think it's interesting cuz you know, you and I have other discussions that we're gonna have in the future about intuition and trusting your instincts. But I think it's important here because when I talk about lessening the voices, it's the voices of the past. It's the voices of your parents, your grandparents, the people that ex had expectations of you or assume that you should be a certain person. It's actually the people that you mask in front of as well. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so Mm. As you start to be that, you know, very unique, amazing person that you always were, you will start to remember your true voice, your true intuition that right now is clouded by a whole bunch of voices of everybody. Like, like literally. And then once you start to drill down, you can start to hear your voice and your intuition is going to be different than your brain voice.
Caroline (00:49:35):
100%. You
Melissa (00:49:35):
Are like, wait, there's more than one voice. You know, it's like yeah. But how do you start to listen to the ones that are more in line with the, your voice, your intuition and get rid of some of those kind of old patterns, old voices, you know, however you believe. Yeah. Right. Your what?
Caroline (00:49:57):
The old shoulds.
Melissa (00:49:59):
Yes.
Caroline (00:50:00):
I'll give an example. I I have a new client and he made the dis difficult choice to divorce. And so I gave him my one year post-divorce exercise and his response to me was, Caroline, I don't know who my best self could look like. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, because I have lived this life and from the outside everything seems perfect. We host the most beautiful parties, we are on track in our careers financially, we are on track. Everything from the outside looks just so mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but something in my soul feels like it's missing. So as we kept talking, literally it was okay, so we don't write out what your best life looks like yet, but can we take a step just to be curious? And he said, most definitely, I said, so what is something that you used to do in the past? You know, like that bird watching mm-hmm. <Affirmative> example you gave, what is something that you did in the past that you have not done in a while? And he said, I love making stained glass.
Melissa (00:51:30):
Me too. I do <laugh>.
Caroline (00:51:34):
And so he said, I took the kid out and I said, I love this. And are you open for an assignment from me? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. He's like, okay, what's the assignment? And I said, would you be willing to make me something? Because you know what? Let's be honest. When we promise something to somebody, we keep ourselves accountable. When we promise something for ourselves so many times we don't keep ourselves accountable.
Melissa (00:52:06):
Yeah. Yeah.
Caroline (00:52:07):
So I gave him the assignment so that he would actually go through creating a stained glass. And he said, I can do that. I said, and as you're creating the stained glass, I want you to sit in that right brain, just very fluid state and allow for your emotions to just settle.
Speaker 3 (00:52:34):
Mm-Hmm.
Caroline (00:52:34):
Allow for the brain that keeps talking to quiet down. Mm-Hmm. So that you know from the depth of your soul what brings you joy and how your best life will look. And I was like,
Melissa (00:52:53):
That is beautiful.
Caroline (00:52:55):
Like I love it. Privilege, I get Yeah. That I have to journey with my clients for them to discover themselves again.
Melissa (00:53:05):
Right.
Caroline (00:53:06):
To set aside all of society's expectations. And even the ones they took on, all the masks that they have put on layer over layer for them to start taking each one off going, you know what, this is not me.
Speaker 3 (00:53:23):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Caroline (00:53:24):
Until finally and over time they can say, this is me, this is me. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, and I haven't seen this person in such a long time. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and this human being is so incredible and so loved and just so exceptional.
Melissa (00:53:45):
Mm-Hmm.
Caroline (00:53:46):
<Affirmative>, this is me. And in that moment is where the magic is.
Melissa (00:53:52):
Well, and I, and I think that what we really want is for people to know that, that this is the, this is something that you might experience in your own divorce is this. Yeah. You think it's all about these things over here and really it's kind of a rebirth of your own self and you're like, wait, I didn't planned on doing like I wanted to change that person. I didn't necessarily wanna change myself. Mm-Hmm. <Laugh>.
Caroline (00:54:19):
And
Melissa (00:54:19):
Quite frankly, you know, that was part of the thing is that we're not looking at ourselves and saying what needs to change so that I can be happier because I'm doing these things as well. Yeah. But we look at how somebody else will change and we're like, well if they leave then I'm just gonna automatically change. No, you're like, you're in control of this and how do you start to navigate it and know that it is not a quick process. Right. It's, it's not. And not that like you're, you might, you know, I was, I was talking to somebody recently I was like, you might like, you might not get there, it just may be the journey the whole time of like, you know, you like stained glass today, but like next week could be something different. You know, like it
Caroline (00:55:06):
Could be pottery next week. Right.
Melissa (00:55:08):
Anything Right. To be
Caroline (00:55:10):
Open. But it's in that curiosity, it's the openness, it's the curiosity. It's literally allowing you to experience something that you might have tamped down over the years. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> you weren't given permission to mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. But now you get to allow yourself and be like, I tried it. Really, it's the stained glass doesn't work for me. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> situation could look like some of the things that you might wanna take into consideration, ideas and thoughts of how do we want to request dividing of the assets or what kind of experts do you want to have within your team. It, not everybody is gonna be the right fit for my practice. I understand that, but I want everybody that meets with me to walk away with just a little glimmer of hope, just a little more understanding of the process. Just a little bit less fear and anxiety, understanding that they're gonna be okay after the divorce is finalized. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Melissa (00:56:09):
Yeah. And maybe you're giving them a little bit more control over the next phase. So if, if you really think like, I haven't been making the decisions in my life, like I've just been going along with what decisions the family makes or his family or her family or whatever, or the kids. Right. That is where I think you need somebody to come and kind of even extract you out of that, that whole pile and be like, Hey, you're still a person. Let's figure out who that person looks like.
Caroline (00:56:48):
Exactly.
Melissa (00:56:49):
Again, this can either, you can get divorced and go about your merry way and continue to repeat patterns or not. Right. We don't know what the future holds. You might break the pattern, but if you see that this hasn't created happiness and joy, then it, you just may need to tweak it a little bit. You know, like
Caroline (00:57:14):
Just tweak it, tweak it and let's, let's be honest, most of us can use a little tweaking no matter how great our life is. Yes. Right? Yes. Most of us can free ourselves from certain patterns that don't work for us. We mentioned earlier, I think pre-recording the law and order situation, right. Watching three episodes of law and order right before you go to sleep mm-hmm.
Melissa (00:57:41):
<Affirmative>,
Caroline (00:57:42):
That might not be a pattern that actually serves you Right. Because now your mind in in the semi subconscious is being programmed with all this violence. Right, right, right. Versus programming your mind and imagining yourself in your best life. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> right before you go to sleep mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Right. Two totally different fields, two totally different vibes, and guess what mm-hmm. The person who's been thinking about their best life will see themselves walking into that best life versus the person who's been watching law and order and then falling asleep to it. They wake up anxious. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they wake up scared. Just
Melissa (00:58:26):
Yeah.
Caroline (00:58:27):
Yeah. Good.
Melissa (00:58:27):
Yeah. Everything you consume, eyes, ears, mouth, heart, all of it creates your vibration. And if that, if these are things that you relate to but maybe don't talk about or don't have people to talk about, this is where things are progressing. People are realizing that it's not just divorce, it's any catastrophic kind of thing that happens and gives you an opportunity to shift you. You create that. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> you shift or you don't mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. But in the divorce we will see people then have this impetus to shift and then they're like, what shift to where I thought this was only one way. Like now you're telling me I have options. Like I I am now I'm frozen. Right. Which is the is You did talk about that one, but not the fawning but the freezing. But anyway, yeah. That we have talked about so much amazing things that I don't think we, people normally listen to cuz we're always talking about finance, but I
Caroline (00:59:34):
Really, it's want, it's not part of the divorce conversation. Yes,
Melissa (00:59:37):
Yes. But
Caroline (00:59:38):
This is something we have to normalize
Melissa (00:59:42):
And, and the reason why Caroline and I are like kind of interested in this is because we are seeing this shift and we are seeing a more holistic approach to divorce that it's not good or bad and it, it, it just really is the choice that you have and so you now have a choice of who you're gonna be in the future. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And although it may seem esoteric and kind of out there, we have done so many divorces over the course of our 20, 25 years of experience each
Caroline (01:00:17):
Yeah.
Melissa (01:00:17):
That we see the patterns and we see that if you know those patterns going into it, it doesn't necessarily have to be overwhelming because you're just doing little tiny baby bites a day. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> just do a little bit a day, little bit a day, little bit a day at the end of the year, you've made it a mile. And that's kind of our goal.
Caroline (01:00:38):
I'm gonna go back to my healing journey starting five years ago this
Melissa (01:00:43):
Day. Yes.
Caroline (01:00:44):
What I was thinking as I was on my walk was, oh my gosh, I was a different person six months after the start of the journey and then I was like a year from that. Oh my gosh. Five years. Totally different human being. Yeah. Totally different human being,
Melissa (01:01:04):
Not recognizable.
Caroline (01:01:06):
Yeah. I mean I might still look similar on the outside, but the person inside the light that I shine now is so different than five years ago. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I didn't even know I had a light to shine mm-hmm. <Affirmative> five years ago
Melissa (01:01:20):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Caroline (01:01:21):
Yeah. Totally different space. And I'm not special in the sense that like, I'm the only one who could have this miraculous shift. No. The truth is every single person can have the shift mm-hmm. <Affirmative> if they choose to take that one little tiny step
Melissa (01:01:39):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> mm-hmm. <Affirmative>.
Caroline (01:01:40):
And that is the scariest step.
Melissa (01:01:42):
Yeah. But
Caroline (01:01:43):
It's the bravest and the most beautiful step, the the best gift that we can give to ourselves. Mm-Hmm.
Melissa (01:01:50):
<Affirmative>. And this might be a little bold, but like I cannot help you Yeah. Unless you take the first step.
Caroline (01:01:59):
100%.
Melissa (01:02:00):
Yeah. So like as much as we wanna sit here and say you gotta do it, you gotta do it. Like you'll be different, you'll be so happy. Like you'll be so you won't even recognize that person. Right, right. Yeah. Like that's for anything regardless of divorce. Yeah. But for anything, like, if you're not living that best life, how do you get there? But I, I can't make anybody and neither can Caroline. So if this resonates with you, reach out. Yeah. Ask questions, find other people that are in this space that are communicating similar because we're not the only ones. Yeah. You just have to look a little bit harder. And there will be somebody that resonates with you because again, since it's not a fast process, the reason why Caroline says work with somebody that you connect with is because you are going to be connecting with them on a consistent basis through this change. And if you don't like them or they rub you the wrong, like sometimes rubbing you the wrong way is, is good, but like, if you're just not feeling it, you know, like there's no reason to like start with that step of like choosing somebody that does resonate with you at a minimum. There's
Caroline (01:03:09):
A little bit of a balance, right? Yeah. They don't have to be your best friend. Nope.
Melissa (01:03:14):
Okay.
Caroline (01:03:14):
But on the flip side, you have to feel safe. Yes. You have to feel held and you have to know that they get your heart two different spaces.
Melissa (01:03:27):
Yep.
Caroline (01:03:28):
No best friend. And you know what, being a best friend sometimes then you get cloudy. But somebody who is able to hold space for you without an an emotional connection and the projecting, that's a beautiful place where you get to blossom mm-hmm. <Affirmative> where you get to know you and then you get to create your own life. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like amazing space.
Melissa (01:03:52):
Yeah. Yeah. And if, if we're gonna be queen bees, we, you know, the interesting part is that you have to kind of surround yourself with other queen bees, you know, or else you're gonna look around and be like, oh, there's those soldiers around. I guess I'll be a soldier. But you're not and you never were. And if you keep, if you can start to recognize that, then things will shift. How will your divorce be easier? Because you shifted.
Caroline (01:04:17):
Yep.
Melissa (01:04:17):
Not because the divorce got easier because it's, it's, it's a process anyway. You've gotta walk the path, right? Yeah. Yeah. But it will be easier because you are kind of taking it as the blessing, as the new phase, as the new chapter. And looking at it as exciting as opposed to like, my life is over
Caroline (01:04:40):
100%. You hit it right on the money. Yeah. It's not that your life is over, it's just that this chapter is shifting. It's closing. Yeah. There's something was
Melissa (01:04:53):
Wonderful, a chapter like maybe it should have gone in the garbage anyway. Stop writing it a
Caroline (01:04:59):
A long time ago. A long time ago. Right. You know that in the divorce process, it takes about two years for one of the spouses to finally say it's done. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> for two years you've been wrestling with this mm-hmm.
Melissa (01:05:13):
<Affirmative> or we'll have people that have filed and dismissed, like they actually went down the process. So like understand that there is no right or wrong way.
Caroline (01:05:25):
Yep.
Melissa (01:05:25):
Choose what makes you happy and you should be okay. And if you need help with that though, call Caroline because she is gonna walk you through. I'm gonna still stay over in the actual divorce process and, and, and mitigate that. But I really appreciate you Caroline, and I know we're doing a lot more, but they can expect some interesting new concepts about in intuition and trusting intuition and what this actually looks like. Because I think if you're like, oh, wait, maybe I do wanna be somebody different, I think we're gonna have to walk them through like, what does that actually look like? And so maybe we'll be creating some more content around that.
Caroline (01:06:10):
Of course, for anybody who is interested, most definitely. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, foundation's coaching group, this is a great space. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to start that journey. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And you will be held. Yeah. You will be safe. Yes.
Melissa (01:06:28):
Yeah.
Caroline (01:06:28):
And I love it, you and I, Melissa, thank you so very much for having me on your podcast. I love that. It was today. It's so, like the universe really just made it so, and, and the
Melissa (01:06:43):
Universe tried to destroy your computer too and stopped you. Oh
Caroline (01:06:47):
My
Melissa (01:06:47):
Goodness. But you did not, you prevailed.
Caroline (01:06:49):
Oh my goodness. <Laugh>. You know, even in that I, we have to have gratitude. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, as I said when I was walking this morning and really thinking about being on this podcast and the impact we will have and humanity in, in terms of the world of divorce, in terms of the world of us as human beings and self-care and self-love and understanding our worth. Like I imagine that as this podcast goes out, as we continue to meet people within the work we do and the space that we are, we are here to impact humanity. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and that impact some, some places did not want the impact. And so my computer went on the Fritz <laugh>, didn't realize I had a backup.
Melissa (01:07:45):
<Laugh>, there's always a backup
Caroline (01:07:48):
<Laugh>. That's right. Little talk sometimes.
Melissa (01:07:53):
Thank you Caroline. We will be back again. You know, who knows? There could be a whole series around this. We may, we just may attention. Right. Well then we will see you soon. For sure. Thank
Caroline (01:08:07):
You. Thank you.
