Tapping Into Your Intuition to Increase Your Emotional Intelligence
Hi, welcome to MediatorPodcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation and collaboration. My name is Melissa Gragg and I'm a valuation expert and mediator in St. Louis, Missouri. I specialize in divorce and partner disputes.
Today we're actually going to talk about something that I really enjoy talking about, but we're gonna tap into our intuition. So how do you tap into your intuition and increase your EQ or emotional intelligence with mediator? Alice Shikina, she's based in California and she has a ton of emotional intelligence, which helps her mediate these cases.
1. What is EQ or Emotional Intelligence?
2. People use the phrase "emotional IQ" frequently. What does that exactly mean?
3. How does one tap into their intuition?
4. How do you use your intuition in your mediations?
5. Is there a way to know if your intuition is correct?
6. What is the relationship between listening and intuition?
Melissa Gragg CVA, MAFF, CDFA
Expert testimony for financial and valuation issues
Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC
melissa@bridgevaluation.com
http://www.BridgeValuation.com
http://www.ValuationPodcast.com
http://www.MediatorPodcast.com
https://www.valuationmediation.com
Cell: (314) 541-8163
Alice Shikina
Shikina Mediation and Arbitration
415-793-8729
alice.shikina@gmail.com
www.shikinamediation.com
Melissa (00:00):
Welcome to MediatorPodcast.com, a mediation podcast and video series where we discuss mediation, negotiation, and collaboration. My name is Melissa Gragg, and I'm evaluation expert and mediator in St. Louis, and I specialize in divorce, mediation, and partner disputes. Today we're actually gonna talk about something that I really enjoy talking about, but we're gonna tap into our intuition. So how do you tap into your intuition and increase your EQ or emotional intelligence with mediator? Alice Shikina, she's based in California and she has a ton of emotional intelligence, which helps her mediate these cases. But basically, I have been connecting with her and she's been on the podcast before. She has a very unique background, which involves acting, and we're gonna get into it because I think the, one of the things Welcome, Alice, since your second time, I'm just like going straight into it. Alice, do you wanna give a little bit before we get into this, because of course I'm a little too passionate, so I'm getting ahead of myself, but tell us a little bit about your new unique background and how you use it in mediation.
Alice (01:12):
Yes. Thanks for having me, Melissa. So I studied, I have an acting degree, a BFA degree, and when you go and study for your bfa, it's as if you are studying to become an act a professional actor, right? And so for your audience members who are not familiar with theater and how acting studies work, part of your studio program includes really trying to read someone else's emotion in real time. And when I say in real time, your emotions can just easily switch second by second, minute by minute, right? One minute you're laughing, the next minute you could be a little bit more serious. And so we're trained to read those like very, very clearly. And I use that skillset in my mediations and it really allows me to understand and read the room. So we're gonna be talking about that a little bit today, and it really gives me clarity on what we, as actors call the subtext.
Alice (02:16):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, right? The subtext is always about what's really being said underneath the words. And as an actor, you take a script, you've got all the words for you, but as an actor, you build out the subtext. What am I really saying? What am I really feeling? And what am I trying to achieve? Like if you and I were acting partners, my motivation might be I'm going to try to make Melissa cry, and so then I would use the words to do that. Right? And so in mediation, I'm trying to read what those subtexts are.
Melissa (02:50):
Yeah, yeah. And I think that, you know, it's fascinating to me because I think there's, for mediation, there's like the skills and the techniques of getting people to communicate, right? It's, it's getting them in the room, it's facilitating that communication. But what, and you know, I'm used to it a little bit more having done this podcast and then I testify online, right? So I very much use my facial and, you know, to, to portray what I need to picture. Oh, I'm confused, but I'm not really confused, right? So for me, when I'm dealing with mediation, the clients usually are like open book, like their faces are like open books about what emotions they're <laugh>, you know, and they're coming in kind of anxious and stressed, right? And so I think that's the interesting part is that it's, we're trained to do active listening. We're trained to listen to the words, but if you don't combine the, the, the, the posture, the facial expressions, the anger, the fa you know, like if you don't, if you just ignore all that and pay attention to the words you're missing, maybe, I mean, what, like, that's almost more than just 50% of the communication.
Alice (04:13):
I agree, right? Yes.
Melissa (04:15):
And that's some of the stuff of what we're talking about here, is that how do you get into reading that? How do you understand it? But like, even starting with the phrase eq, emotional intelligence, you know, people use this phrase emotional IQ very frequently, but I like even talking about this, you know, you're like, you know what it means. And I was like, but do I, do I really know what it means? Like what do, what does your perception, what does that mean to you? And kind of how does it mean something in mediation? Well,
Alice (04:50):
I first wanna just acknowledge that it's not a term that everyone likes. It turns some people off cuz they're like, oh, that's just some new agey stuff. So I kind of want to reframe it and say, it's your ability to understand what is happening to your clients emotionally, right? So I, I just wanna get rid of the label cuz I feel like the label sometimes is perceived negatively. And so really what it means is to be able to read, like you said, it's not just non-verbal cues. You also want to read the energy, right? Yeah. What's the energy in the room? What's happening with the energy? So it's, it's basically being able to see everything that is almost invisible, right? Yes. You're picking up on facial cues. Yes, you're picking up on physical, you know, body language, but you also wanna pick up on tone.
Alice (05:46):
You wanna pick up on attitude, you wanna pick up on the vibe, the energetic vibe that's going on in the room. So it's a lot of information that you're synthesizing in order to understand what's really happening. So I think that's really what we're talking about when we're talking about the intuition, is really ramping up your own intuition, which is learning to pick up on all those cues, right? So it's the language, it's the non-verbal language, it's what's invisible, the subtext, all of that, and synthesizing that. And that's sort of what we're talking about when we're saying, you know, to use your intuition.
Melissa (06:24):
Yeah. And some of it is when you are really tapping into your intuition or energy or kind of reading the room, you are going to see things and feel things and sense things faster than everybody else in the room sometimes. And so you are then how you regurgitate that information, how you intro, you know, like, cuz there's it, it's like with anybody like, oh, you look tired, you know, there, there's a different way to be like, you know, is, are you, are you okay? You know, are you emotionally you know, is this a good time? Do you feel comfortable about having these discussions? You don't have to say you look like trash and it looks like you haven't slept and you've been crying your eyes out. Right? But I think that you also have to understand when you can see it, like, when you can see when people come into the room or the zoom that they're already in that stage, sometimes you have to figure out as a mediator, when do you address it, right?
Melissa (07:25):
Because we're these aren't personal relationships. Like, you're not my best friend and I'm like, Hey, like you good? Are you ok? No, it, it could be like you're recognizing them, but maybe not always addressing them. So I think that we're gonna talk about that too. Like there's the recognition of what's happening and there's the calling it out, right? Or there's the engaging in a discussion about it and how do you do that? And those are kind of two different ways. So maybe we can just start with like, how do we tap into our intuition first and use it for our own benefit? Maybe not always to just like spit it out like, huh, I see you look like you're going crazy. You know, like maybe dial it back a little bit because mediators are people, and, and when we go about this, we really have to work on how we do this communication, how we explain things, the pace, the vi you know, like all of this. But at first, how do we tap into our own?
Alice (08:34):
Yeah. So you first of all want to make sure that you yourself are at a place of personal growth that you have learned to trust your intuition. Because if you are the type of person who has historically ignored signs, you know, you know, you know that age old story where you're walking around, you feel like, oh, I'm a little bit danger. I feel like it's dangerous, but there's no one around me, so I'm going to just ignore my intuition. And actually something is really happening or about to happen, right? So to get to a place where you trust your own instinct, that is very critical because if you don't trust your own instinct, or if you historically don't listen to your own instincts, it's going to be very difficult for you to recognize what's going on in the room because you have always suppressed your intuition.
Alice (09:22):
So you want to just, if that's you, I want you to start watering that dried out garden. Mm. Right? Practice honing your intuition. So when you feel something, trust it and let it guide you. Right? And so anything, it could be anything, it could be in your mediation, it could be out and about in the world, but just allow that into your heart to say, okay, my intuition is telling me something. Let me trust it and let me guide it. And in the mediation scenario, it's about asking questions and it's about using your mediator tools as you see fit. For example, yesterday we were having a long drawn out mediation. It was three hours with people, like until 10 at night. All right? So people were very exhausted. And one of the things that I noticed is I was noticing that there was just a, a flagging of energy because it was late.
Alice (10:21):
And so I, you know, I don't always ask people to repeat what, what it is that they heard or acknowledge what it is that they heard. But because it was late, because I could tell that people were getting tired, I did ask one of the participants, and I, and I always frame it, I say, look, I'm gonna ask you something. I'm, I'm sorry, I'm just put, I'm, you know, placing it on you as a surprise. It's not intended as a surprise, but can you just let me know what it is that you heard the other person say? Hmm. And not surprisingly, she had a difficult time recollecting what was just said, right? For the past three minutes, right? It wasn't very long. And she's like <laugh>. And so that was my intuition, letting me know, I'm not sure that she's listening even though she looks like she's listening.
Alice (11:10):
I think she's sort of passively listening, which is, which basically means she's hearing the words, but she's not processing the meaning. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so as a mediator, I have to like sense those things just by visual cues, right? It looked like she was tired, her face looked tired, and I thought, I'm not sure that she's processing all the information I need to make sure that she is, because otherwise there's no communication back and forth, even though it might look like it, right? And so when I asked her, she did say, oh, you know, she repeated a few things and she said, can you let me know again what you said? So then people listen a little bit more deeply the second time
Melissa (11:55):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And I think that mediation in some capacity starts to look like a meeting and we revert to like a business meeting, right? And so we we put on that persona, we put on that mask of whatever we're going to, to wanna portray in that situation, which means that we don't always ask the questions. We, you know, like the participants may have missed something, but they don't want to say I missed something. But you see them like, you know, trying to write things down. And I mean, even people are very visual of like like, what, you know, and I think that, that that doesn't, we go into this role of like, let's just settle it, right? And we're, we're going really efficient and we sometimes put the blinders on and we're kind of in this effort to get it settled. We're not paying attention that the people want it to get settled.
Melissa (12:58):
The people want it to be fast. The people want it to be quick and painless. But the reality is, we know these conversations sometimes need to be had. The, the, the words need to come out, the emotions need to come out, or these types of things need to come out. And so for the most part, we suppress them, I think, in these mediations, right? Because you we're all coming in on our best behavior and uhhuh, <affirmative>, do you understand Uhhuh <affirmative>? Do you really understand? You know, it's like, same with your kids. You're like, you know what? I said Uhhuh <affirmative>. And then you're like, repeat what I said. And you're like, what'd you say? Exactly Right? Our goal is to draw it back. Our goal isn't to push it necessarily forward as fast as we can. Our goal is to make sure people understand.
Melissa (13:42):
And if you're not paying attentions to some of those nuances that's gonna be an issue. Now, one thing I would say about tapping into your intuition that I think is hard for people to conceptually understand, cuz they're like, tap into my atti intuition. What do you mean? Like, it comes up whenever it comes up, right? Realistically, you're probably experiencing it more often and you can't discern it from what people maybe call the monkey brain, which is the lists and the, you know, the things that are always going on in your head. Like, is that my intuition? Or is it that sort of, when you have something irra like, we get confused with our brain rationality and our intuition. And I don't know if it's, it's helpful to talk a little bit more about that and how you distinguish, you know, like how do you distinguish when it's just you being paranoid because you're, you're concerned and anxious and you've gotten attacked in public before, right? That's anxiety, that's, that's like concern from your history. But this intuition is really like, something's amiss and I don't know what, but I need to pause. Right? That's how I envision them a little bit different.
Alice (15:01):
Also, I think that you can think about intuition, like really shows up if you're present, really present. You're physically and mentally present in the moment. So one of the biggest things that we learn as actors is to be in the moment, and Melissa, you'll be able to see bad acting. And when you're watching bad acting, it's because the actor is not in the moment. They're thinking about something else. They're thinking about their next line or their next scene, or how badly they just screwed up the last scene. Whatever the case is. If you watch someone on, on, you know, TV or in the theater and you're like, oh, that's bad acting, it's because they weren't in the moment. So in the same way we as humans are frequently not in the moment, all right? We have a lot of other things that we're thinking about.
Alice (15:53):
We are double and triple multitasking, right? Thinking about other things while we're talking to someone or even thinking about other things while the other person is talking. And so you really want to be present with the other person, like in the moment means in this second, right? That second by second we are tracking one another mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And if you do that, you have a much deeper understanding of what's going on. If you can forget about everything that's happening, forget about the last moment, forget about the future, upcoming moment, and just be in the moment, you'll be able to like sense a lot more mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, right? And then you can use your intuition that way significantly more because you're staying in the moment and you're being grounded. If you are the type of person who's usually multitasking or thinking about other things or writing notes constantly, your intuition is shut down. You cannot have a good sense of your intuition if you're constantly writing notes, because that is blocking your intuition from even blossoming. Mm-Hmm.
Melissa (16:59):
<Affirmative>. And when we get into these mediations, a lot of times people have been geared up to negotiate. And I think that, you know, and I know that there's studies that have been done on this, but when you're in the mode of like, negotiating, I have a mission. I don't know what you're saying. Like, my mission is I'm gonna negotiate and I'm gonna get these things right? And, and that's, and that. And so you come in and you're like, okay, I'm ready. You know? And, and it's almost like you're not even hearing now as a mediator, we're taught of the active listening. And the active listening really does engage when you're in that moment, right? Because I'm like, I'm there with you. I'm, I'm listening and I can't do anything else. And so in some ways I've even been able to like say, Hey, if everybody agrees to it, sometimes we'll record the mediation.
Melissa (17:55):
You know, like, again, that has its own set of things, issues that you need to be aware of. But in some situations when, when I've recognized that the parties have a very hard time without taking almost verbatim notes because they think that this is very complex information and they wanna get it right, it may be helpful to record a portion of it or to have that so that they can, you know, sometimes audio recording is even sufficient so that they can just go back and say, what did I hear before? That it's not necessarily, it, it, the intent isn't to use it against somebody, but it's to, you know, do you have issues with retaining that information? You know what can we do to assist in that? But, you know, there's also more tangible ways that you can use intuition and mediations, and maybe you could give us some, you know, and we'll talk more about intuition in a more fun way. But this is really a, being a good mediator has a lot to do with reading people.
Alice (19:06):
Yes, absolutely. And
Melissa (19:08):
So how do you use it?
Alice (19:09):
Yeah. So one of, so when I begin my mediation sessions, one of the things I do is I help. So I explain what I do, and I'll, and I'll go into that in a second, but I also utilize the participants and their intuition as well. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, so I pool the room, right? So it's not just Alice's intuition, it's Alice's intuition, like coupled with Melissa's intuition, coupled with Anna's intuition. And together it's a really powerful tool to use mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So I usually let people know if I'm sensing an impasse or if I'm sensing some kind of heightened emotional state, then I'm gonna call breakout rooms and we're going to go separate. So I let them know that up ahead and I usually can sense what's happening. However, I can't always read someone when A, they are a stranger, and B, they have a very good poker face, right?
Alice (20:03):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, they might look really calm and inside the house is on fire mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So I let them know if you feel any negative emotion, heightened emotion, defensiveness, anger, frustration, irritation, anything at all. And I might even count do a very, like, literally 32nd coaching to say, if you're feeling your heart racing, your blood pressure feels like it's going up, you're feeling your face getting flushed, anything like that, then you need to let me know, Hey, I need to speak with you privately. And we go into breakout rooms because I am not the only one who can read other people. So I'm trying to give people a clue to keep their self awareness high enough so they also recognize I'm not doing so well right now. I'm trying to hold it together, but it's not working. Right. And so we do breakout rooms so that I can allow people to express everything freely to get their minds working again.
Alice (21:01):
Because when your amygdala is triggered, which it triggers and shuts down all your executive functioning, when you are in any kind of negative emotional state, you can't negotiate, you can't think through all the options, right? And so you have someone who is in the room who is debilitated, and you're continuing on with the negotiation, right? And so I make sure that that is hands down, the first rule that I put out there on the table as a mediator to say, I'm going to use my intuition to call breakout rooms in the event that my intuition does not pick up something. I'm also relying on your intuition about yourself mm-hmm. <Affirmative> to be able to communicate to me so that we can do what's appropriate. And so with that strategy, we move along very quickly because I almost never let there be a pause due to an impasse
Melissa (21:56):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah. And I think that a lot of times we can almost see where the impass are gonna be, right? We, we, we know kind of what junctures we're gonna get to that the impasse is gonna be like, this is gonna be a biggie. And I think having those now interesting that you kind of talk as, as a group. I think that I was watching something recently about a CIA agent, and they said that there are three things that people have. They have their public persona, they have their private persona, and they have their secret persona. And I think that what we've done in business and in negotiations in general is we're kind of coming in with our, our public persona. But our private persona is the one that is freaking out because this is about our private lives. Like we're trying to be business, we're trying to be professional, but this is our private lives.
Melissa (22:55):
And then you have that secret persona that everybody's sort of like shoving back into the closet because we don't want to talk about those things. And I think that what happens is that the facade looks different than the words or the feeling. And so usually the intuition is picking up on a disconnect between what is, what we're visually seeing happening, what we're hearing, and what we know based on as a reference point of the past. These things do not connect. So it's like, I don't know why these things aren't connecting, but I'm getting, and then it starts with these feelings of discontent and you don't know what to do. And in some aspects it then leads us to say, okay, well am I still having like most of the people I talk to is, am I ha am I anxious? Am I having more anxiety about this? Or is my intuition correct that there's something off here? And, and how do I know if I should say something? Right? Right. Because most people will be quiet, and that's not helpful in a mediation, you know? So you gotta get people talking. But how do you know if your intuition is correct? Especially when you as the mediator say what your intuition tells you. And everybody's like, that's all right. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>.
Alice (24:23):
Right? So I feel like it's very powerful to use caucuses in this. And I don't always use it for, for example, let's say that someone agrees to whatever they've agreed to, and they're like, okay, fine. I agree. I am always trying to read the subtext under the words yes. Or I agree. I'm trying to read the tone, I'm reading the facial expression to make sure that it's like what you talked about, that everything is in alignment, right? That the facial expression says, I agree. The words say, I,
Melissa (24:55):
I agree, agree.
Alice (24:56):
Yes. And so if there's a disconnect where they're like, okay, and then they have a flat tone, I'm immediately going to call it out. I'm going to say, Hey Melissa, I heard you say okay, but it sounded like you're not a hundred percent okay. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I allow them to surface that. Cuz usually their, their intuition is telling them, ah, let's just not talk about it and let's just agree. Right? There's some kind of internal dialogue happening. And so I'm going to call out that internal dialogue. My intuition is letting me know, Hey Alice, like all these things are not in alignment. I do not sense Melissa's is agreeing even though she said yes. And even though her face looked like she was saying yes, because the tone didn't sound like a yes. Right? So something is off. So in that case, I will usually ask, it sounds like, or I'm sensing like that you're not a hundred percent on board even though you said yes.
Alice (25:52):
Right? Or even if I ask someone Yes, do you understand? And they might say, I understand. And then, and then their face looks really confused, right? I will say, Melissa, you, you just now said that you understand, but it's looking like you're still a little bit confused and I'm going to name everything. Yes. The other thing that I do, if there's something that's like not sitting right with me, I'll usually put people in breakout rooms because they might be hiding something due to the other party being in the room mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so at least if I break them out, I can ask them privately like, Hey, is this okay? Or am I missing some, I'm sensing something's going on with you. What is it? And I'm usually very successful at digging up whatever gold that has been hidden because people are way more comfortable giving up all the, the stuff in a private session mm-hmm.
Alice (26:46):
<Affirmative>. So they will tell you, and then we can determine how much of that information do we incorporate into the conversation. A lot of times they're like, yeah, that's fine. You can go tell them Alice, I don't want to say it myself. And so then they utilize me as the buffer to be able to express this stuff. But I think it's a fabulous tool to use because you have to intuit that the reason why it's not coming out and you're sensing it is because they're hiding it from the other side because they're uncomfortable, they don't wanna express it, they have insecurities, whatever is going on. Right. And so if you separate them and go to each one and say, what's really going on? It sounds like everyone says yes, but I'm still sensing like something's not right with you. What is happening mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and then they will tell you.
Melissa (27:31):
Yeah. And I think that as a female mediator, I have to be very careful with my intuition because you know, sometimes you will sense it more with somebody who is like you, it looks like you is a woman in my case. And it could result in some implicit bias for me because I can sense, you know, that the woman is uncomfortable, but the man might be better at hiding his emotions or his, you know, outwardly things. And so you're not picking up on that. So I think there's also, you know, like how do you not have it be one-sided as well? And so I think that going into those separate rooms and those separate caucuses is a good way to have that conversation without even alluding to the fact because that the conversation that there was a need for the conversation. Because in some cases, if you're like, oh, you look sad, I liked what you said is, you know, you look concerned or do you understand?
Melissa (28:43):
Right? And, and if we as mediators put less emotion on it, like, you look sad or happy, like you look like you have some emotions you're dealing with, right? Do you need space or time or do we need to take a break? Right? and then occasionally if they say, no, I'm good, I'd be like, you know, for me, I think we're, I think I'm gonna take a break and so let's just take five minutes so that I can at least, you know, because I'll force a break if the person's, and that's the intuition saying, nah, I think you still need one. You're not being truthful. And interestingly enough, when you put them into caucus, they will tell you their secret life and their private life because we will more blindly trust somebody in a position that we're in like a mediator. And we, we've ruined the trust typically with that other person that's in there.
Melissa (29:43):
So we absolutely won't tell them anything. Whereas you put us into the same room with somebody that we really don't know, and we're willing to tell them because it's, it's, it's entering with that state of, especially if you recognize things that are happening un in during the mediation, you know, like if, if people start to sense that you sense what's happening because you've been doing this, you know, like you could call it been doing this for a long time, they would be like, oh, you understand <laugh>, you know, like they don't know that they're gonna, going through this two hour mediation is literally gonna pull up all of these bad memories. Maybe like they don't anticipate that they're prepped to be steadfast and sturdy and not cry and be okay and then it triggers them and they don't know what to do. And if you, if you don't acknowledge it, because our tendency as humans is not to acknowledge emotional behavior is to just keep going. And in mediation you have to stop. Right. Maybe we should talk like a little bit about that is that we guide the pace of the mediation and if we don't allow things that we know should pause it or stop it, we're actually not doing our job, right? Yes. In some capacity.
Alice (31:04):
And well, to your point, I believe that when you coach your clients at the top of the mediation, that they need to listen to their own intuition and they need to ask for a break if they're feeling too stressed or too emotional or whatever, right? It actually helps because when you give them the permission to tap into their own self-awareness and intuition of what's going on, they start listening to their own intuition. And usually if you don't prep them or no one has prepped them, they go in and they're going to ignore, they're going to ignore that they're thirsty, they're going to ignore that they're so upset that they should call a break. They ignore all of the emotional things. So what you wanna do is you want to make space for that
Melissa (31:54):
Mm-Hmm.
Alice (31:54):
<Affirmative>. So it's not so much like, Hey, you're welcome to like burst into tears here or what have you. But just to say, you're welcome to trust your instinct and your intuition, and if you need a break or you need to speak to me privately or anything that you need, because there's an emotional component underneath it that's too, too strong, right?
Alice (32:16):
You can ask for it. That is a huge tool for mediators to use because I can tell you that every single mediation that I offer these things to at the top, they use it, they use it throughout the session, they'll say, Alice, I need that break that you told me that I can ask for. Or Alice, I have to speak to you privately. Like they use all of those. So give your clients the permission to tap into their own intuition throughout the mediation, because now you're getting additional information that you would not be getting if they themselves are squashing down all their needs.
Melissa (32:54):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Well, and I, and I think that in, in some capacity in these mediations, you know, when the beginning, when I was doing mediation, I was like, oh, the, the clients say I need to do this, or I, you know, like you're, you're more like honing your craft and you're trying to help these parties, right? And I think that as you get a little bit more down the road, you start to realize, no, my process works. It's just that the clients always come with this sense of, you know, like, let's hurry through it. And typically there's, in a dynamic in a relationship, there's usually like one person that wants to go fast and one person that wants to slow down, you know? So you're always maintaining your own kind of veracity. I've, I've ended meetings when both of them are like, no, we're perfectly fine to go forward.
Melissa (33:47):
And I was like, well, and I will use the phrase, I'm, I'm here to protect you from yourself and in some capacity, I think you have to just know what your own limit is. But when, you know, I think people will say, well, it's hard to read the room when we're in Zoom. Right? And I would say I categorically disagree with that because when people are in the comfort of their own homes, they become more visual in, in, in their feelings, their emotions played. Because again, you're in your own, you're in your own house, you're in your comfortable surroundings. I'm like, you know, I had a guy like that was sitting there and he was just like, oh my god, <laugh>. And I was like, are you are, should we take a break? Because it feels, seems like you're very visually distracted. You know, I had one recently where they muted and the person was like,
Alice (34:45):
<Laugh>.
Melissa (34:47):
And I was like, should maybe, is this not a great time? And they're like, and then they like unmute it and they're like, no, it's fine. What's wrong? <Laugh>. Right. So again, in those situations, typically if they're our clients, we're not gonna check them, right? Cuz they're our clients, they're paying us to do this, and I'm gonna be like, oh, no problem. You know, whenever you're ready to go. Whereas realistically, I think as a mediator, you have to figure out how to check that behavior in a very unemotional like, let me clarify, it appears that you have other things to do, or this is during a workday and maybe this wasn't the right time. Right? But it also is very important for all. And then to frame it as it's very important for all of us to be present and attentive to this or else, you know, if, if one out of the three of us is not paying attention, <laugh>, it's too much.
Melissa (35:48):
Right? And so I think that there's a way to not be like, Hey, you're being a jerk and rude to us, which is how you would deal with an interpersonal relationship. There's a different way as if you're the mediator and you don't have emotion. Like your ego could take a hit, like you're not listening to me, right? But you need to portray, it's how you communicate that that's more important. Digesting the intuition, taking that information, and then how do you guide the mediation in a direct way? Because I deal with a lot of people that are very you know, flamboyant or, you know, have a lot of emotion and passion and, and are doing a hundred things at one time, right? And that might be okay, but if you can see the other party is also uncomfortable, then it's your role to address it and attempt to correct it.
Melissa (36:45):
And I don't think, I don't know, I mean, and it's an uncomfortable conversation, right? I, so how do you deal with some of those uncomfortable conversations? Or it kind of leads into, you know, how we're dealing with listening and intuition. So I'm listening, I'm in, I I feel that you are absolutely distracted, not paying attention, not taking this serious, and we're all here serious. How do you as the mediator keep control of the reins of that situation and keep your own emotions intact when your intuition is like these pe th this person's taking this as a joke.
Alice (37:24):
It's like you said, I mean, I feel like you did answer the question in that you want to restate everything in a neutral from a neutral way, right? Yeah. Like you mentioned, like, it, it seems like you're busy with something else right now. Maybe now's not the best time, right? As opposed to like, I'm offended that you're doing this or, you know, so and so looks angry. Right? So not placing that on there, and it's sort of harkens back to, for your listeners who know about the non-violent communication, it's the same way where you state a fact, it's neutral, it doesn't have any judgment on it, it doesn't have your opinion on it. And by judgment and opinion, the words always and never are also judgmental, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so without saying things that are judgmental and simply stating a fact just as an example maybe Melissa, instead of saying you know, you never answer my calls, that would be a judgment that I'm placing on you that I would say you didn't answer the last three times that I called you, that is neutral.
Alice (38:28):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it's a fact. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So to be able to do that, but then also to listen to what they are saying. So sometimes I will intuit that something else is going on and then I will ask deeper questions. And then you want to listen to be able to even ask even deeper questions, right? So it's like a spiral going deeper and deeper down. And so that's the relationship between listening and intuition is that you have a feeling that something's going on, you can ask a question and then you really need to listen. So you shouldn't have an agenda to say, Hey, I'm gonna mention Melissa, I think that you know, X, Y, and Z and then I wanna move my agenda forward. It's really to be in the moment with you right now, what are you saying? What are you feeling? And asking deeper questions so I can understand really where you are so that we can pivot or move forward.
Melissa (39:22):
Yeah. Well, and I think that another thing that us mediators don't always wanna do is that how can you tell if your intuition is correct? I need the documentation. So I hear what you're saying and you're saying that that doesn't exist, or that's now nothing, or this is gone, or this was sold and then the backup, you know, if you feel, if you still feel like that answer isn't sufficient, you know, could you provide some documentation that allows me to understand that that's the reality? Because I think in mediation and you know, like, oh shoot, I should probably do a whole fricking episode on this issue. But I think that we're just allowing the words of the parties to prevail. And so the party's like, oh, it's gone. Oh, it's worth a lot. Oh, I don't, I don't know where it is. You know?
Melissa (40:19):
And we're like, oh, okay, sounds good. Whereas the mediator is also to say, okay, well that doesn't totally make sense. You know, given that, I can see that it, it was there yesterday. So maybe we could have, you could have some documentation that shows that it's no longer there cuz you can prove, you know, like I think we tend to, so you, so you have words that don't make sense. You have an intuition that tells you that it's, doesn't make sense. You try to clarify and you say, well, could you talk to me more about that? It's still like everybody in the room feels like you're being, that that person is not being truthful. Then I think that you have to force some sort of documentation. And, and yes, I'm in the finance land, so we're always documenting, but I think just in gen, like, oh, I paid the mortgage, I paid the mortgage last month.
Melissa (41:21):
Well, I, the mortgage company called me and they said, you didn't pay the mortgage. Right. You know, like these types of things. Okay, could you just show us that you did it right? Oh, well I did. Oh, I looked back at that statement and I didn't do it. I, I just thought I did. But you're right, I missed a month. I think those are the types of things that again, parlay into trust. You know, like that's the trigger of like, okay, it wasn't always that somebody is misleading or hiding it, is that they incorrectly recall their memory wrong <laugh>, right? Because I always pay the mortgage. Oh, I forgot that one time. Da da, I paid it online, or I made two payments. You know, those types of things. Are you a, are you trying to get confirmation when they say your intuition is wrong?
Alice (42:15):
No. Usually what happens in those cases, in my opinion, is that there's something else going on. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So it's, so I understand that you're in the finance and you need documentation. Typically though it is something else, it is not that they're necessarily lying, it's not that they necessarily forgot. It could be they're not ready to get divorced mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so they're dragging their feet or they forgot, or they accidentally misplaced things. And so my intuition, my read on those types of things is not so much about, hey, we need documentation. It's more what I ask myself is what's really going on? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, right? If things aren't in alignment, they said they paid the mortgage, but they didn't, and there's all this chaos happening. My intuition is suggesting that they're either not ready to have the, the divorce be complete or they are more comfortable in the chaos and are deathly afraid of peace.
Alice (43:11):
Right? So those are the things that, so you have to at least think about it and have it be in your mind. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, right? Because a lot of times it's subconscious. They may not realize that's dragging their feet because they're afraid to get divorced. They may be doing that subconsciously. So it's not something necessarily that you can say, Hey Melissa, clearly you're doing this because you don't wanna get a divorce, because you can say that's not true. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But as a mediator, I think it's important to read the room mm-hmm. <Affirmative> what's really going on. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, right? If you're sensing that there's some weird alignment that they said they paid it, but they didn't pay it, I start thinking about what can really be going on? Is this person really afraid to get a divorce? Because then what that does is it will pivot your attitude towards them mm-hmm.
Alice (43:59):
<Affirmative> and your understanding towards them. So again, it's that whole emotional reading to understand, oh, I see what's really going on. This person kind of wants to stay in the chaos for a while mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, they're not ready to let go of it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, and then that's the case. Then maybe you just need to extend the amount of time for them to get divorced because someone's clearly not ready because they're like causing a lot of chaos. So I use that as a read on the room, and if I'm sensing that someone is holding onto chaos by doing things like you're suggesting, then I will like extend the time of the mediation. Meaning like the next one might be a month out instead of the next week. Because I understand that emotionally they're not ready to complete this process.
Melissa (44:41):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And I, and I think that that is a very good point. My my father's a psychologist, he used to say, if things don't make sense, there's a lie in there. And it doesn't mean that there's a lie. Like somebody's trying to lie. It means that what they're portraying is not true. And so, and that's where I think when you have a process in mediation and people defer off of it a little bit, it's because they have to, it's because this isn't a linear type of process, you know? Even when they wanna get it done quick, there's emotional things. So I think it's good. I I think that's good to remind us of the fact that none of this is ever about us. It's about them. And if they're holding themselves back in some capacity, at what point are you the therapist or the mediator or the marriage counselor? And you have to su understand your role. If you're, if you're not here to do the things that are involved in your role, then, you know, in some capacity you're, let's take a pause, right? Yeah. It's still us directing the pace. Yeah. Because we see these things often. Right? Right,
Alice (45:54):
Right. And
Melissa (45:55):
So yes,
Alice (45:56):
You direct the pace of the, the contin, the additional sessions because you understand inherently that there's a block, that there's an emotional block that they, it's manifesting in physicality, right? Like they're forgetting to pay the mortgage or they're saying that they did, but they lost the payment, you know, tracker, what have you. So it's manifesting that way, but there is an emotional block and if you're reading the room correctly, you can just say, you know what, let's like wait till next month. Like, I know you are in a hurry, but it's my sense that you need a little bit more time mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, right? And so that is the emotional reading of the room.
Melissa (46:34):
Yeah. And sometimes there's a way to say to both parties, you know, it, it appears that when we come here we really wanna get things done, but we're also doing things that would slow down the process. And so if there are some maybe emotional things that we need to address, you know, talking to a therapist or somebody before and after these mediations may help you in that capacity. Discussing it with family members or even having one party be on Zoom or something like that. You know, like sometimes even being in the same room with each other. So I think it's being creative and coming up with solutions because if you do mediation, every single person in every single situation is gonna be totally different. Right. And, and exactly. But I think that at least in talking about intuition, we've at least created that it's not all about the hard skills and mediation. It's almost like more about like, I think you become more successful the more you can have intuition guide you.
Alice (47:46):
Absolutely. I a hundred percent agree.
Melissa (47:49):
Because you don't know these people, right. Most of the time is it's like the new, you know, another story and you really have to pay attention to how they're per, you know, like it's the same story, but what's, what's the set? How about that in acting, right? Yes, yes. What is everything around it showing us? So if they're like bright, sunny, but all we see is storm clouds and rain and we're like, you know, we sometimes have to call it out to just say, Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm not quite certain. Could you clarify? Right? Yes. And there's ways to work on that communication. Or I
Alice (48:27):
Might say something like, Hey Melissa, I am hearing you say you want this, but then I'm seeing you act in ways that you don't want this. Like, can you tell me what's really going on? And then the truth will come to light. Like I can't tell you how many times when I've called it out that all of a sudden the thing that they've been holding right behind their clips comes Right spill out because you've given them the permission to spill it and all of a sudden you're like, okay, now I see what's really happening. Yeah. So absolutely call it out
Melissa (48:57):
Like, you took Grandma's China set and I want it back. And I was like, is this it? Are we good now? You know, because, and it sometimes it is that easy, but if you don't pay attention, you're gonna get distracted by what everybody's talking about. And we could've solved it with getting the choch key back. Right. You know, like that that could've, that could've solved the whole thing. Or you know, my cat or my dog, sometimes they're animals things, but Alice, you actually help train mediators. You help coach them in their skills. Not only do you do mediation, but you also offer a lot of training on LinkedIn and workshops and webinars and things like that, that as a mediator, it, I would've totally wanted that at the beginning. Like when I first started, I was like, what the heck is going on? Like, this is the wild west.
Melissa (49:54):
And I think that if people are looking for resources, can they reach out to you, call you, email, you connect with you, because I think mediators need some help in, we're talking about nuances and words and everybody could be watching this and be like, ah, nuances and words, words, words, words. It is so impactful. It is so important how you describe things and either placate matters or amp matters up that I think it's almost a lost, like, like it's being lost on some people cuz they're, you know, like, I'm going in for millions of dollars. And it could be the nuance of how I addressed everyone. Yeah. That sets the stage, right? Yeah. And so we have to understand that some of the choreograph part of this is in us showing up in a certain way that is open and available, right? Yes, absolutely. What are some of the trainings you got going on recently? How are you helping people? So
Alice (50:55):
I've got an ongoing negotiation training. It's online. Yeah. So absolutely anyone can sign up and I have new cohorts every single month. So definitely if your listeners are interested, I would love to have them come and sign up with me. We meet once a week for eight weeks and I teach you how to negotiate. But even as a mediator, I think it's really important to be able to coach your clients on negotiation. Not because you're helping one side win over the other. My philosophy is that you coach them to get to the win-win. And so if you are a mediator and you feel like you would like to shore up your ne negotiation skills so that you can pass it on to your clients, it would be a fantastic course for them to take because it really helps, like I'm able to get everyone to a settlement because I coach them in negotiation to get to a win-win.
Melissa (51:48):
Oh, that's a good that. Yeah, I haven't, I haven't really thought about that, but definitely when we're involved in mediations where we're just on one side we are hyper coaching and hyper prepping. And I think that people don't necessarily take mediation inside litigation as serious and we do. So I think anytime you have an opportunity to bone up your, like, you know, maybe I like the term, maybe I like the term emotional intelligence, but I think really like how you can connect with your own self and understand, you know, what's going on in the room. You can make a much better mediator. So I would say reach out to Alice or take some of her courses because it's just amazing. You know, she reframed several different things in this podcast that I think if you go back and just pay attention to those, those are important things.
Melissa (52:47):
People come into mediation so amped, so high on emotion, so high on like, oh, gotta get everything I, you know, that if you don't recognize, if you ig if if you ignore it, if you're like, well I'm in mediation, I don't wanna deal with that. Like that's the litigation stuff. Absolutely. No, you almost have to be eight times better. Right. Because those are so important. And could you use them in litigation? Yes. Could you use them in all interpersonal relationship skills? Yes. Right. Because it's just facilitating communication better by not ignoring the trigger of somebody looks like they're about ready to cry, right? Oh, I'm just gonna keep on going. Right. Let's keep on going because
Alice (53:32):
You're gonna just, you're gonna hit the wall <laugh>. Yeah.
Melissa (53:36):
Yeah. And I think in our normal lives we do that, right? Yeah. And in a mediator sense, we have to sort of like be that person that's like, wait, I don't, doesn't make sense. Let's realign. So any parting words about intuition? Alice?
Alice (53:53):
Just, you know, everyone really needs to tap into their body, their physicality, just really be self-aware of what's happening. And when you feel something, trust it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, and this is if you practice outside of mediation, then you can bring that into your mediation. But everyone needs to start practicing in their normal lives, trusting what they're feeling to be true. Mm-Hmm.
Melissa (54:16):
<Affirmative>. And you can get confirmation from somebody or not, but be aware that sometimes people are very frightened when somebody sees like, oh, you, oh, you knew how I was feeling. You know, they might be like, Uhuh, I'm not feeling like that. So you have to still trust that you heard what you heard and that their response, you're also hearing that they don't want to acknowledge that right now. So it doesn't mean that you drill it down like, yes, I'm right. It means that you've, you've identified the issue, you are correct. They have responded that they are not willing to deal with it. And you now put that into the information of the entirety of the mediation and you say, is it relevant for them to stop or go? And you continue on. So thank you Alice. This was amazing. Thanks
Alice (55:05):
For having me again.
Melissa (55:06):
Maybe in a future one we'll tell you a little bit more about how we really use intuition, but for now it's a good, it's a good primer, right? <Laugh>?
Alice (55:15):
Yes. Okay.
Melissa (55:17):
Thank
Alice (55:17):
You.
Melissa (55:18):
All right. Thank you so much and we'll talk to you soon. Okay.
